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Post by Freedom on Aug 1, 2012 14:27:18 GMT -5
A dear friend of mine is an elderly fellow (in his 80's now) and we used to talk about / share writing a lot.
He read long sections of the bank-robber book (All for One here). He discussed with me character names, horses' names, character stuff, etc.
Then one day, at a Mexican restaurant, we got in a big fight over the book (literally hissy-fits as we were in public).
It started by him telling me what one of the characters would do (I consider that he over-identified with this character), I disagreed, and things escalated rapidly to him scolding / disapproving / hissing at me over making a criminal a hero.
Well ... that was a some time ago and I still haven't come to terms with this.
(Of course some of the sting came from feeling blindsided by him being so nice about it and then cutting loose what he really felt -- but that is a relationship issue, NOT a writing issue.)
I must and do accept the fact that others will have opinions that are different from mine. Sometimes these opinions could push a button.
But I have not yet made up my mind committed to my decision regarding his stated point: the iffyness of a criminal hero.
Certainly I had no problem with it until I got scolded. I saw my character's path clearly and understood (I don't say condoned) how he got where he was. He's flawed. He generally does his best.
Also, he's not the hero. He's the character with whom the hero(ine) falls in love. That's different.
However, now I'm stuck. I can't change the character, he is what he is. I personally can't write to restrictions very well, find it a chore, might as well be tech writing again.
So, guess I need to dismiss the scolding, and commit to my character.
Mrs. Rice tells us: "Never doubt your vision."
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Post by scribbliz on Aug 1, 2012 14:36:19 GMT -5
Freedom, if this is a book YOU are writing, than the characters are going to talk to YOU. (ok, that sounded very...odd, lol)
What I mean is, when I write, my characters do what they do, and it's almost like I can't control it. I can fine tune it, I can edit it, but they do what they are going to do, and be who they are. If I try to change that, the whole thing collapses, like a house of cards with one at the bottom pulled out.
I would say, take another look at what was said, and see how you feel about it? Quick question, what is wrong with making a criminal the "hero" of your story?? And are you using "hero" as in a good guy? Or "hero" as in main character? (or in this case, character that the main character falls in love with??)
I personally would have a moral issue with portraying someone truly evil and cruel as a good guy, unless they reform somehow, but I don't see the issue with portraying someone like that as a main character, or even THE main character. Your story is YOURS, write it as you see it. And I agree with Mrs Rice...don't doubt your vision! No one else has the same vision you do, and no one else could possibly write it as well as you can!
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Post by readilygrey on Aug 1, 2012 14:52:46 GMT -5
No one else has the same vision you do, and no one else could possibly write it as well as you can! ^This. I agree completely with scribbliz and Mrs. Rice. Also sometimes something seems like it won't work in a draft or when discussed, but turns out beautifully in the final product. Black and white characters tend to be boring and don't arouse much sympathy. I think there is nothing wrong with having a likable "bad guy." A lot of times those are my favorite characters and I spend the story wanting them to become more and more good. I think that's why I loved Spike so much in Buffy  It sucks when your confidence is shaken though. Maybe try writing a scene just for fun where you make your character as awful as possible, and then another where he's an absolute angel. Maybe then your character behaving as himself will seem completely reasonable to you again. Keep us posted on this. I really was intrigued by the bank robber story. I liked the heroine a lot. She was so precise! |
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Post by Freedom on Aug 1, 2012 15:06:37 GMT -5
Freedom, if this is a book YOU are writing, than the characters are going to talk to YOU. ... ... my characters do what they do, and it's almost like I can't control it. I can fine tune it, I can edit it, but they do what they are going to do, and be who they are. If I try to change that, the whole thing collapses, like a house of cards with one at the bottom pulled out. Exactly. Thanks! |
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Post by PaperGrace on Aug 1, 2012 15:07:28 GMT -5
The anti-hero is an archetype old as civilization. Bah! Also, if as you say, he isn't even 'THE' hero, more the love interest--then "Bah!" Some more! It sounds like your friend may be unable to imagine characters that aren't easily pigeonholed. People have depth! Bad guys do good things! Good guys do bad things! I roleplay with a friend who just cannot seem to fit my characters into his headspace. He comes up with ridiculous situations based on his skewed perception of what I've written, generally by boiling the character down to the point that it has no personality. I recently agreed to be in a game that he was running again, and it is the same thing all over. I don't have this problem in any other game setting with other people. It is clearly him. The thing is, he LOVES playing games with me, and likes my characters. He just doesn't 'get them'. He thinks he does, tells other people about them, how great they are, etc... and then totally misses the mark. He's generally quite bossy about it too. "Well your character likes X so she's obviously going to do Y." "No, actually, she finds Y to be the least agreeable solution to this problem, I'm thinking Q." "OK! So when you do Y..." "Q" "  Why would you Q? How about Y?" "  " Don't let this shake your confidence. If you find you get similar feedback from a number of other sources THEN examine whether or not it is something that needs work to approach. This still wouldn't mean that you 'wrote the character wrong'. It could mean that the pacing is jarring or some other thing. |
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Post by Freedom on Aug 1, 2012 15:09:01 GMT -5
nothing wrong with having a likable "bad guy." A lot of times those are my favorite characters and I spend the story wanting them to become more and more good. I think that's why I loved Spike so much in Buffy I do too! Well said! Thanks! |
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Post by Freedom on Aug 1, 2012 15:16:13 GMT -5
It sounds like your friend may be unable to imagine characters that aren't easily pigeonholed. Oh, you've met him too? ;D Re others arguing with you over what your characters would do -- does that just puzzle you?!?!? It does me. And good point, too -- the more they are like this: unable to imagine characters that aren't easily pigeonholed, the more like that they are. It's almost a personality quiz. |
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Post by scribbliz on Aug 1, 2012 16:01:56 GMT -5
Yeah, it puzzles me too. I mean they don't KNOW my characters the way I do. It would be like me arguing with you about what your mom (whom i've never met) would do.
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Post by readilygrey on Aug 3, 2012 18:21:53 GMT -5
Yeah, it puzzles me too. I mean they don't KNOW my characters the way I do. It would be like me arguing with you about what your mom (whom i've never met) would do. That is really weird. I've met people like that though, a few hardcore gamers and scientists. It's like everything has to conform to their version of reality or their personal universe might explode. My dad is kind of like that actually. He won't believe anything illogical without proof. I called him with a plumbing problem once, when the water drained from the tub it would overflow the toilet. He just kept telling me it was impossible and that I was wrong. Went on this huge physics rant about it too. I was so mad at him at the time, but it's pretty funny now. |
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Post by scribbliz on Aug 3, 2012 18:57:23 GMT -5
It's difficult when someone doubts what you are seeing isn't it? Even when it's just in your head. It's so nice to be able to talk to other people that don't think you're crazy when you say things like "my characters tell me what they are going to do." I had tried to explain it to someone once and used that line....they thought I was hearing voices. UGH! That was an eventful conversation!
It's so hard to talk to someone who doesn't write; to explain to someone why your character has chosen to such, when all you want to say is, well, it's what they chose to do. Then they tell you, yeah, but you wrote it! well, sort of...I'm the conduit that puts it on paper, but the story is already there.
It really does make me sound crazy!
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Post by readilygrey on Aug 3, 2012 20:38:17 GMT -5
It's so nice to be able to talk to other people that don't think you're crazy when you say things like "my characters tell me what they are going to do." I had tried to explain it to someone once and used that line....they thought I was hearing voices. UGH! That was an eventful conversation! I know what you mean! I was telling this guy about how I have conversations with my characters. I'll discuss a movie or what shoes I'm going to wear, etc. I do it so I can imagine the character in any situation, get a sense of their tastes and preferences, and so on. The guy thought I was nuts and told me I needed help! Ha ha. I'm glad I'm not the only one to have that experience.  |
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Post by scribbliz on Aug 3, 2012 20:43:59 GMT -5
Is it sad that in my novel a character has to die...that's where I keep getting stuck. The character is a grandfather/teacher type figure, and I don't WANT him to die. When I first realized that he had to, it was inevitable, I actually cried. For several years as a teen when I would look out a window, I would actually see two worlds...the real world that was out there, and the one from a story that I haven't told yet...one I haven't heard all of yet. They would be superimposed on one another, like a single photograph with two exposures on it. I learned how to differenciate between them, and they were very different (one was a town, the other a huge towering forrest, with a plain that had a huge battle that had happened in the past. I don't think I ever told anyone that, because if people freaked out about my "hearing" my characters, how would they react to that? |
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Post by PaperGrace on Aug 3, 2012 21:11:26 GMT -5
Yeah, it puzzles me too. I mean they don't KNOW my characters the way I do. It would be like me arguing with you about what your mom (whom i've never met) would do. My dad is kind of like that actually. He won't believe anything illogical without proof. I called him with a plumbing problem once, when the water drained from the tub it would overflow the toilet. He just kept telling me it was impossible and that I was wrong.  |
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Post by PaperGrace on Aug 3, 2012 21:14:09 GMT -5
Is it sad that in my novel a character has to die...that's where I keep getting stuck. The character is a grandfather/teacher type figure, and I don't WANT him to die. When I first realized that he had to, it was inevitable, I actually cried. For several years as a teen when I would look out a window, I would actually see two worlds...the real world that was out there, and the one from a story that I haven't told yet...one I haven't heard all of yet. They would be superimposed on one another, like a single photograph with two exposures on it. I learned how to differenciate between them, and they were very different (one was a town, the other a huge towering forrest, with a plain that had a huge battle that had happened in the past. I don't think I ever told anyone that, because if people freaked out about my "hearing" my characters, how would they react to that?
I don't think you're crazy for seeing double. |
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Post by readilygrey on Aug 3, 2012 21:34:05 GMT -5
Is it sad that in my novel a character has to die...that's where I keep getting stuck. The character is a grandfather/teacher type figure, and I don't WANT him to die. When I first realized that he had to, it was inevitable, I actually cried. For several years as a teen when I would look out a window, I would actually see two worlds...the real world that was out there, and the one from a story that I haven't told yet...one I haven't heard all of yet. They would be superimposed on one another, like a single photograph with two exposures on it. I learned how to differenciate between them, and they were very different (one was a town, the other a huge towering forrest, with a plain that had a huge battle that had happened in the past. I don't think I ever told anyone that, because if people freaked out about my "hearing" my characters, how would they react to that? I don't know if I'm ever actually killed a character I care about. I've have them be possessed or mutated and then brought back. Killing a character is really hard to do. I don't think you're crazy either |
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Why would you Q? How about Y?"
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